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CHINA
Jan 15, 2024 18:59:05 GMT
Post by glennkoks on Jan 15, 2024 18:59:05 GMT
I have no problem with the Chinese people or their products. And I will be the first to say that what they have done economically over the last 30 years economically is nothing short of a miracle. Growing from a third world nation to the worlds second largest economy is impressive. My issues are with their Orwellian form of government that brought you Tiananmen Square and welding people in their apartments during Covid. As for their products. They are not known for quality but they do manufacture some quality products. I have a cheap Harbor Freight pressure washer my neighbor threw in the trash because it would not start. I got it out of the garbage, cleaned the carburetor and use it everyday to wash my boat. The poor thing stays outside in the rain, heat, cold and starts on the second pull every day. It is a workhorse. With all that being said the Chinese economic system has deep rooted problems. It starts with a massive oversupply of houses/condos sitting in empty cities that people have invested their life savings in. Their arrogant foreign policy and Orwellian government has sent investors fleeing China in droves. In addition Xi Ping Pong is no free market capitalist and the pressure created by this downturn has forced him into a corner. History has taught us that cornered dictators are dangerous. I fear for Taiwan and peace in the South China Sea. Do you believe Xi set the price of Walnut's recent purchase ? What are examples of his price controls? (Check the definition of free market capitalism.)
I'm not a defender of everything Xi does, but from personal experience, the Chinese do a pretty good job of giving freedom to a capitalist economic system although I'd guess there are situations where prices are controlled as there are in the US.
Duwayne, China is notorious for providing subsidies to their companies to give them an unfair advantage over competition abroad. In a truly free market the government does not provide "subsidies" to help give an unfair advantage. That's part of the reason the house of cards in China is collapsing. Government subsidies are like giving your kids and allowance and then charging them rent. Wealth is not created, it is simply a redistribution of wealth. As far as Walnut's recent purchase. I have pondered that greatly over the last few days and come to the conclusion that that rig was sold at a loss. There is no way, in any nation in the world that you can buy the materials for that rig, assemble it and ship it here for less than 3,000 dollars. I am not sure of the situation but it reeks of desperation. Perhaps the company he purchased it from is so strapped for cash they have to take a loss to keep the doors open a little longer. No idea... This is a quote from the link provided concerning Chinese subsidies: "The Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington-based think tank. It found that the benefits, in the form of direct subsidies, below-market-rate loans and land sales, tax breaks, and capital provided by state-run investment funds in 2019 were worth at least $248 billion and as much as $407 billion, depending on how exchange rates are accounted for." www.voanews.com/a/report-china-spends-billions-of-dollars-to-subsidize-favored-companies-/6587314.html |
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Post by glennkoks on Jan 15, 2024 19:50:23 GMT
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CHINA
Jan 16, 2024 1:25:08 GMT
Post by duwayne on Jan 16, 2024 1:25:08 GMT
Do you believe Xi set the price of Walnut's recent purchase ? What are examples of his price controls? (Check the definition of free market capitalism.)
I'm not a defender of everything Xi does, but from personal experience, the Chinese do a pretty good job of giving freedom to a capitalist economic system although I'd guess there are situations where prices are controlled as there are in the US.
Duwayne, China is notorious for providing subsidies to their companies to give them an unfair advantage over competition abroad. In a truly free market the government does not provide "subsidies" to help give an unfair advantage. That's part of the reason the house of cards in China is collapsing. Government subsidies are like giving your kids and allowance and then charging them rent. Wealth is not created, it is simply a redistribution of wealth. As far as Walnut's recent purchase. I have pondered that greatly over the last few days and come to the conclusion that that rig was sold at a loss. There is no way, in any nation in the world that you can buy the materials for that rig, assemble it and ship it here for less than 3,000 dollars. I am not sure of the situation but it reeks of desperation. Perhaps the company he purchased it from is so strapped for cash they have to take a loss to keep the doors open a little longer. No idea... This is a quote from the link provided concerning Chinese subsidies: "The Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington-based think tank. It found that the benefits, in the form of direct subsidies, below-market-rate loans and land sales, tax breaks, and capital provided by state-run investment funds in 2019 were worth at least $248 billion and as much as $407 billion, depending on how exchange rates are accounted for." www.voanews.com/a/report-china-spends-billions-of-dollars-to-subsidize-favored-companies-/6587314.htmlFrom Wikipedia..
"In economics, a free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are self-regulated by the open market and by consumers. In a free market, the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government or other authority and from all forms of economic privilege, monopolies and artificial scarcities. "
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CHINA
Jan 16, 2024 2:14:17 GMT
Post by duwayne on Jan 16, 2024 2:14:17 GMT
Do you believe Xi set the price of Walnut's recent purchase ? What are examples of his price controls? (Check the definition of free market capitalism.)
I'm not a defender of everything Xi does, but from personal experience, the Chinese do a pretty good job of giving freedom to a capitalist economic system although I'd guess there are situations where prices are controlled as there are in the US.
Duwayne, China is notorious for providing subsidies to their companies to give them an unfair advantage over competition abroad. In a truly free market the government does not provide "subsidies" to help give an unfair advantage. That's part of the reason the house of cards in China is collapsing. Government subsidies are like giving your kids and allowance and then charging them rent. Wealth is not created, it is simply a redistribution of wealth. As far as Walnut's recent purchase. I have pondered that greatly over the last few days and come to the conclusion that that rig was sold at a loss. There is no way, in any nation in the world that you can buy the materials for that rig, assemble it and ship it here for less than 3,000 dollars. I am not sure of the situation but it reeks of desperation. Perhaps the company he purchased it from is so strapped for cash they have to take a loss to keep the doors open a little longer. No idea... This is a quote from the link provided concerning Chinese subsidies: "The Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington-based think tank. It found that the benefits, in the form of direct subsidies, below-market-rate loans and land sales, tax breaks, and capital provided by state-run investment funds in 2019 were worth at least $248 billion and as much as $407 billion, depending on how exchange rates are accounted for." www.voanews.com/a/report-china-spends-billions-of-dollars-to-subsidize-favored-companies-/6587314.htmlI'm looking to see if there is "interference" of the capitalist system from Xi which would stymie its success. The items from the Study above would seem to be aimed at assisting the process. |
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CHINA
Jan 16, 2024 2:55:24 GMT
via mobile
Post by glennkoks on Jan 16, 2024 2:55:24 GMT
Duwayne, if you’re so high on the Chinese economy I think you should jump right in and put your money where your mouth is. Think of it as buying at bargain basement deals!
Let us know how that works out for you…
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CHINA
Jan 16, 2024 17:41:25 GMT
Post by duwayne on Jan 16, 2024 17:41:25 GMT
Duwayne, if you’re so high on the Chinese economy I think you should jump right in and put your money where your mouth is. Think of it as buying at bargain basement deals! Let us know how that works out for you… Glennkoks, this is a typical conclusion-jump that I see in your postings. I don't recall that I said I was high on the Chinese economy. I said they switched to a capitalist economic system and have greatly benefited from it. Why do you do this?
How did your predicted 50% drop in the stock market work out? Why no follow-up?
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Post by walnut on Jan 16, 2024 18:58:13 GMT
It seems like largely semantics though.. nobody surely will pretend that China hasn't had some spectacular growth in the last few years. I'm not sure how pure their communism is but it definitely isn't a real Marxist model. On the other hand it isn't Texas. I'll stick with Texas for now myself.
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Post by nonentropic on Jan 16, 2024 19:46:08 GMT
If I were to characterize the Chinese I think entrepreneurship would be part of the description. We see this in NZ and Singapore shows this also. So China was a Marxist state where people possibly as many as 100 million were killed for crimes such as being poor Marxists.
However once the CCP opened the market window just a fraction the disgraceful state of the country allowed a massive dividend to be harvested.
They now stand at the limits in my view of the market economy that is able to be utilized without reforms at the next levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
The transition that is needed will not be welcome and the consequences of not undertaking the reforms will be even less welcome.
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CHINA
Jan 16, 2024 20:57:19 GMT
Post by glennkoks on Jan 16, 2024 20:57:19 GMT
Duwayne, if you’re so high on the Chinese economy I think you should jump right in and put your money where your mouth is. Think of it as buying at bargain basement deals! Let us know how that works out for you… Glennkoks, this is a typical conclusion-jump that I see in your postings. I don't recall that I said I was high on the Chinese economy. I said they switched to a capitalist economic system and have greatly benefited from it. Why do you do this?
How did your predicted 50% drop in the stock market work out? Why no follow-up?
Duwayne, I am not jumping to conclusions we have been beating a dead horse for months. I do not believe the Chinese economy is a free market capitalistic system and you do. We're never going to agree on that. But to put it to rest why don't we just label it Orwellian Capitalism? |
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CHINA
Jan 16, 2024 22:50:26 GMT
Post by duwayne on Jan 16, 2024 22:50:26 GMT
Glennkoks, I did not say China has a "Free Market Economy". No country has a truly Free Market Economy.
This came up much earlier in your response to my claim that the Chinese economy is now based on capitalism. You said something like China doesn't practice capitalism, certainly not free capitalism. My response was something like, I'm not saying free capitalism (which is a theoretical, non-existent form of capitalism).
I credit China's success to the private ownership of businesses in China versus their early 1980's practice of socialism. This is key to their "miracle".
Your conclusion that I am saying China has a free market economy is false.
Capitalistic systems aren't known for their smooth rides. China's housing sector is going through a big bubble.
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CHINA
Jan 17, 2024 0:55:09 GMT
Post by glennkoks on Jan 17, 2024 0:55:09 GMT
Duwayne this is what I said back in December of 2022: "com·mu·nism noun a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs. cap·i·tal·ism noun an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state. The two are not compatible. Communists want control of trade, industry and its population. Capitalists want private owner ship and the fruits of their labor. In China the zero covid lockdowns and recent demonstrations have the people in the cross hairs of their dictators. It will not end well." A tenant of capitalism is private ownership. The Chinese themselves do not consider themselves Capitalists but describe their economic system as a Socialist Market Economy. Maybe you need to convince the Chinese themselves that they are capitalists because they themselves do not even claim that title. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_market_economy |
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Post by walnut on Jan 18, 2024 4:04:43 GMT
Core drill rig from China got shipped today. It's to be on the Cosco Shipping Rose, a Hong Kong flagged ship. www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9785809When I sell my mining permits this year (I have a couple of big buyers very interested), I think I'm going 'rare earths' prospecting. Go West Young Man! |
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Astromet
Level 3 Rank
Meanwhile, here in the real world...
Posts: 169
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CHINA
Jan 18, 2024 5:24:16 GMT
code likes this
Post by Astromet on Jan 18, 2024 5:24:16 GMT
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CHINA
Jan 18, 2024 20:11:18 GMT
Post by duwayne on Jan 18, 2024 20:11:18 GMT
Duwayne this is what I said back in December of 2022: "com·mu·nism noun a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs. cap·i·tal·ism noun an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state. The two are not compatible. Communists want control of trade, industry and its population. Capitalists want private owner ship and the fruits of their labor. In China the zero covid lockdowns and recent demonstrations have the people in the cross hairs of their dictators. It will not end well." A tenant of capitalism is private ownership. The Chinese themselves do not consider themselves Capitalists but describe their economic system as a Socialist Market Economy. Maybe you need to convince the Chinese themselves that they are capitalists because they themselves do not even claim that title.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_market_economyIf you go to Tiananmen Square, at one end you will see a large picture of Mao. If you look in the middle of the square, you will see his mausoleum which holds his body which you can view. He is an icon.
The Chinese leadership are smart enough to not indicate that Moa's ideas on Marxism, particularly socialism don't work. Past leaders tried socialism and with $250 per capita income in the early 1980's Deng Xiaoping (and Xi in his part of China) decided to try other things and found that private ownership of business worked well as it had in other countries. But wisely, in my opinion, they have not stepped on Mao's legacy by saying they prefer capitalism to his ideas. They've found other words for it and even slipped the word "social" into the description.
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CHINA
Jan 21, 2024 1:44:53 GMT
Post by glennkoks on Jan 21, 2024 1:44:53 GMT
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