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Post by gridley on Feb 26, 2022 18:29:32 GMT
"The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, no more, no less."
We have a strong tendency in this country to think in terms of black and white. Good and bad. One side is right, the other is wrong. This leads directly to a thought process that says if I can prove the "other side" is bad, then I have proved "my" side must be good.
Reality is, I believe, more often shades of grey. The modern "Democratic" Party is a very dark shade of grey indeed. The modern "Republican" Party is noticeably lighter, but still more than 50% of the way to black. Trump, for all he was hailed as a hero and was unquestionably a better choice than Hillary, wasn't fit to polish George Washington's sword. Of course, Washington wasn't perfect either.
So yes, Russia/Putin is bad. That doesn't mean the Ukraine are the "good guys". The Ukraine has... let's say major issues. That THEY'RE bad doesn't make Russia good either.
The media focus on the invasion is highly likely caused by a desire to distract people from other stories. Of course, the fact that they're motives are bad doesn't mean we SHOULDN'T be paying attention - we have to ask whether we have a dog in that fight. If we do, we should get in the fight.
No one has yet shown me we do have a dog in that fight; Russia is a long-term strategic threat I grant you, but I see no upside to fighting them now in the Ukraine. There's a very good chance they'll fragment (again) from internal pressures before they become a direct threat to us, and they'll certainly have to take territory (Western Europe, for example) that would be easier to fight on before they could. So, for now, wait and see seems to be the best plan.
Of course "wait and see" wouldn't mean "slowly kill our military" (as we're presently doing)...
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Post by pbfoot on Feb 26, 2022 18:33:08 GMT
Ukraine has killed 14,000 Russian speaking ethnic people since 2014. The Nazi party of Ukraine is nuts. The really sad thing is, US has been funding and arming the nut jobs. Do we have to pull for either side?
Russia is the aggressor nation invading the Ukrainian territory, so it seems inappropriate to wish them well.
Russia is a successfully corrupt nation. Ukraine is an unsuccessfully corrupt country with unethical and illegal ties to the US. How is Russia morally superior?
Because it is their region of influence. Not ours. |
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Post by walnut on Feb 26, 2022 18:59:34 GMT
Do we have to pull for either side?
Russia is the aggressor nation invading the Ukrainian territory, so it seems inappropriate to wish them well.
Russia is a successfully corrupt nation. Ukraine is an unsuccessfully corrupt country with unethical and illegal ties to the US. How is Russia morally superior?
Because it is their region of influence. Not ours. That's a reason for the US to stay clear of the conflict, but that does not influence me to give a damn about the Russian side. Not morally superior. It's just trading one oligarch for another. But the Ukraine does not currently have nukes aimed at my home town, Russia probably does. |
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Post by walnut on Feb 26, 2022 19:02:53 GMT
I don't know yet for certain what is going on over there. So much staged or edited video on the Internet complete with crisis actors, I'm waiting for better information for my own satisfaction at least.
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Post by pbfoot on Feb 26, 2022 19:48:58 GMT
I don't know yet for certain what is going on over there. So much staged or edited video on the Internet complete with crisis actors, I'm waiting for better information for my own satisfaction at least. Breitbart is obviously pro Ukraine. Figures. President is a tribe member. I figure the next step to convince the American public that we need WW3 is that are genociding jews and coming for Israel next. |
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Post by pbfoot on Feb 26, 2022 19:49:42 GMT
Because it is their region of influence. Not ours. That's a reason for the US to stay clear of the conflict, but that does not influence me to give a damn about the Russian side. Not morally superior. It's just trading one oligarch for another. But the Ukraine does not currently have nukes aimed at my home town, Russia probably does. We have nukes pointed at them. What's your point? Hypocrisy? |
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Post by walnut on Feb 26, 2022 20:27:32 GMT
That's a reason for the US to stay clear of the conflict, but that does not influence me to give a damn about the Russian side. Not morally superior. It's just trading one oligarch for another. But the Ukraine does not currently have nukes aimed at my home town, Russia probably does. We have nukes pointed at them. What's your point? Hypocrisy? The country that is pointing guns at me is the one that I hope loses the conflict. Why would I care beyond that? |
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Post by acidohm on Feb 27, 2022 9:34:50 GMT
Politics and opinion of thus war aside. Trawling twitter shows predominantly the following.
Ukraine citizens standing en masse in front of advancing tanks.
Molotov cocktail production and tanks being hit 10+ times.
Tanks abandoned then burnt, or exchanges with soldiers by tanks who've run out of fuel.
A Ukrainian president who stands with troops.
Russian advance seemingly underwhelming.
Russian troops told they'd be welcomed, apparently were selling fuel in Belarus before departure.
Russian guided missile stocks depleting.
Overall, I don't think the Russians are prepared for this and possibly have logistic issues.
This isn't working like it did for the taliban in Afghanistan.
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Post by ratty on Feb 27, 2022 10:36:46 GMT
Always interesting to read opinions on this forum and find it done without rancour. Congratulations. I've learned so much here ....  |
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Post by pbfoot on Feb 27, 2022 11:50:43 GMT
Politics and opinion of thus war aside. Trawling twitter shows predominantly the following. Ukraine citizens standing en masse in front of advancing tanks. Molotov cocktail production and tanks being hit 10+ times. Tanks abandoned then burnt, or exchanges with soldiers by tanks who've run out of fuel. A Ukrainian president who stands with troops. Russian advance seemingly underwhelming. Russian troops told they'd be welcomed, apparently were selling fuel in Belarus before departure. Russian guided missile stocks depleting. Overall, I don't think the Russians are prepared for this and possibly have logistic issues. This isn't working like it did for the taliban in Afghanistan. You realize Twitter is the foremost propaganda arm of the liberal order? |
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Post by pbfoot on Feb 27, 2022 12:03:57 GMT
In the run up to the first gulf war the sentiment was similar. The whole world is United against Sodom. Now, 30 years later, we know the Intelligence community lied about everything. We have been told that Russia is our enemy since we were children. All evidence points to the fact that the current administration in DC is lying about everything again, yet everyone is supposed to believe them now. Like Lucy and the football. Aging populations are especially vulnerable to propaganda from legacy media because you think they still have the same integrity as they did in the past.
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Post by acidohm on Feb 27, 2022 12:09:55 GMT
Politics and opinion of thus war aside. Trawling twitter shows predominantly the following. Ukraine citizens standing en masse in front of advancing tanks. Molotov cocktail production and tanks being hit 10+ times. Tanks abandoned then burnt, or exchanges with soldiers by tanks who've run out of fuel. A Ukrainian president who stands with troops. Russian advance seemingly underwhelming. Russian troops told they'd be welcomed, apparently were selling fuel in Belarus before departure. Russian guided missile stocks depleting. Overall, I don't think the Russians are prepared for this and possibly have logistic issues. This isn't working like it did for the taliban in Afghanistan. You realize Twitter is the foremost propaganda arm of the liberal order? If someone in Ukraine wants to post something on twitter they can, If I want to I can. Peoples opinions and censoring of posts aside, if 20 villagers stand in front of a tanks, it gets posted and appears on a twitter search, I'm good with that. |
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Post by ratty on Feb 27, 2022 12:11:55 GMT
In the run up to the first gulf war the sentiment was similar. The whole world is United against Sodom. Now, 30 years later, we know the Intelligence community lied about everything. We have been told that Russia is our enemy since we were children. All evidence points to the fact that the current administration in DC is lying about everything again, yet everyone is supposed to believe them now. Like Lucy and the football. Aging populations are especially vulnerable to propaganda from legacy media because you think they still have the same integrity as they did in the past. I think someone on this board had this as a signature some time back ..... The rules for politicians are simple: They lie to us. We know they are lying.
They know we know they are lying, but they keep lying to us and we keep pretending to believe them. |
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Post by pbfoot on Feb 27, 2022 12:38:57 GMT
You realize Twitter is the foremost propaganda arm of the liberal order? If someone in Ukraine wants to post something on twitter they can, If I want to I can. Peoples opinions and censoring of posts aside, if 20 villagers stand in front of a tanks, it gets posted and appears on a twitter search, I'm good with that. Do a reverse image search before you believe anything on Twitter. |
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Post by pbfoot on Feb 27, 2022 12:48:41 GMT
Pattern recognition and math are my life. Very convenient for there suddenly to be War on the horizon at this particular time in history. Let's unpack a little. Inflation is currently running at 20% plus.The Wall Street bubble is bigger than 08 and should have already collapsed but is being propped up by the fed. If real interest rates were being used instead of zero or 1%, the debt that western governments have would plunge us into a world wide depression. If they keep interest rates low inflation will accelerate and we all will suffer and we will have a world wide depression. The western world is angry because neo liberalism has been a failure. They need cover. It is always about money while the powers that be are screeching about national sovereignty, which is the antithesis of neo liberalism.
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