WORLD WAR Z

[justme]

Aug 27, 2024 16:34:32 GMT duwayne said:

Aug 24, 2024 22:57:59 GMT duwayne said:

JUstme, why did Russia invade Ukraine?

Justme, any response?

To stop the western invasion of Ukraine. To stop WWIII from starting. To stop the economic, political, and diplomatic war that has been raging against Russia since the 90's. To increase their own economic power.

The west wanted to use Ukraine, to increase their own money and power, while stopping the resurgence of Russia. The west wants Russia to be economically weak and dependent on the west. They also want to stop dedollarization and get resources from Russia for pennies on the dollar. The west has been engaged in an economic, political, and diplomatic war against Russia since the 90's.

I am not sure why you are asking this question. This has been stated numerous times throughout this thread. Experts have been talking about this for more than a decade now.

[duwayne]

Aug 27, 2024 16:54:30 GMT justme said:

Aug 27, 2024 16:34:32 GMT duwayne said:

Justme, any response?

To stop the western invasion of Ukraine. To stop WWIII from starting. To stop the economic, political, and diplomatic war that has been raging against Russia since the 90's. To increase their own economic power.

The west wanted to use Ukraine, to increase their own money and power, while stopping the resurgence of Russia. The west wants Russia to be economically weak and dependent on the west. They also want to stop dedollarization and get resources from Russia for pennies on the dollar. The west has been engaged in an economic, political, and diplomatic war against Russia since the 90's.

I am not sure why you are asking this question. This has been stated numerous times throughout this thread. Experts have been talking about this for more than a decade now.

I'm asking because if you want to settle a dispute, it's good to know what the participants are seeking.

I don't see anything on your list which gives Russia the right to invade Ukraine.

The list seems somewhat parallel to Germany's reasons for invading Russia.  They thought it would be beneficial for themselves. They didn't care about the rights of the country they were invading.  As you say, they want to increase their economic power.

Do you agree with Russia's use of force to invade another country to increase their own economic power?

[walnut]

Aug 27, 2024 18:26:24 GMT duwayne said:

Aug 27, 2024 16:54:30 GMT justme said:

To stop the western invasion of Ukraine. To stop WWIII from starting. To stop the economic, political, and diplomatic war that has been raging against Russia since the 90's. To increase their own economic power.

The west wanted to use Ukraine, to increase their own money and power, while stopping the resurgence of Russia. The west wants Russia to be economically weak and dependent on the west. They also want to stop dedollarization and get resources from Russia for pennies on the dollar. The west has been engaged in an economic, political, and diplomatic war against Russia since the 90's.

I am not sure why you are asking this question. This has been stated numerous times throughout this thread. Experts have been talking about this for more than a decade now.

I'm asking because if you want to settle a dispute, it's good to know what the participants are seeking.

I don't see anything on your list which gives Russia the right to invade Ukraine.

The list seems somewhat parallel to Germany's reasons for invading Russia.  They thought it would be beneficial for themselves. They didn't care about the rights of the country they were invading.  As you say, they want to increase their economic power.

Do you agree with Russia's use of force to invade another country to increase their own economic power?

How long would our neocons tolerate a Russian controlled Mexico?  With biolabs near the border?

[Sigurdur]

Aug 27, 2024 22:41:43 GMT walnut said:

Aug 27, 2024 18:26:24 GMT duwayne said:

I'm asking because if you want to settle a dispute, it's good to know what the participants are seeking.

I don't see anything on your list which gives Russia the right to invade Ukraine.

The list seems somewhat parallel to Germany's reasons for invading Russia.  They thought it would be beneficial for themselves. They didn't care about the rights of the country they were invading.  As you say, they want to increase their economic power.

Do you agree with Russia's use of force to invade another country to increase their own economic power?

How long would our neocons tolerate a Russian controlled Mexico?  With biolabs near the border?

Think Cuba.

Also, APOV killing Russian folks in Eastern Ukraine.

[justme]

The Ukrainian defense lines in The Donbas are broken. Additionally, defense lines do not exist for Ukraine further west.

[gridley]

Aug 28, 2024 2:21:15 GMT Sigurdur said:

Aug 27, 2024 22:41:43 GMT walnut said:

How long would our neocons tolerate a Russian controlled Mexico?  With biolabs near the border?

Think Cuba.

Also, APOV killing Russian folks in Eastern Ukraine.

There was a one-panel political cartoon back in the day - it showed a television reporting that "Saddam Hussein has now been a thorn in the side of three American presidents..." Fidel Castro is watching the TV and thinking "Amateur."

And while a Russian-controlled Mexico might be worse than the current situation, a completely corrupt/cartel controlled one isn't exactly a good thing.

[justme]

Ukrainian Telegram:

"Our source in the General Staff said that the Ukrainian Armed Forces have left Novogrodovka and are preparing to retreat from Selidovo, which no one had prepared for defense from the north. The front has collapsed in the Pokrovsk direction and the Ukrainian Armed Forces have no way to stop it, since all reserves are deployed in the Kursk direction."

"Zelensky's Kursk adventure has caused the Donbass to be abandoned, but our experts and journalists are silent about this for now, all reserves have been thrown into an unknown place and for what purpose. Now the enemy is grinding our best units in the open fields of the Kursk region, while the trenches and defensive lines stand empty in the Donbass. The Russians captured Novogrodovka in the Pokrovsk direction in a few days, although there were fortifications there, writes MP Maryana Bezuglaya.

The city was captured because "the trenches in front of Novogrodovka were empty." There were also "no signs of preparation for defense or the presence of our military" in the city.

"There was practically no Ukrainian army in the once 20,000-strong city. The 31st brigade was removed from the city, the brigade commander, for whom the collective had asked, was removed, and a criminal case was opened against him (I remind you that there is still not a single one against Sodol). Instead, an inexperienced unit was sent here," Bezuglaya wrote.

Such rotations, she said, "lead to breakouts and deaths."

Bezuglaya states that these “empty” fortifications include Selidovo, which the Russians have already “entered.”

"A week ago I went out to the outskirts of Selidovo in the direction of Novogrodovka and saw fortifications in front of the city. There was nothing in the city, an ordinary civilian settlement. I entered the trenches, no one was guarding them, no one was in them. I went underground and came out into the field. There were already Russians behind the field. There was no one else. I did not blow myself up on mines, did not meet territorial defense fighters - only single insects were the only life in the prepared fortifications around Selidovo, which the Russians had been striving for ten years. Any civilian could have done the same as I did," the MP said and published a photo of empty trenches near Selidovo."

"Zemlimobilization in Ukraine is so unpopular that military commissars-policemen were allowed to open fire to kill against Ukrainians. The losses in Zelensky's Kursk adventure and in Donbass are so large-scale that it is necessary to urgently recruit 200-300 thousand, but the mobilization rate is now 20-30% of the plans.
All TCC employees have been informed that in case of a threat to life, they should immediately open fire to kill. The jokes are over , — Volyn Regional TCC"

"Our source in the OP said that Zelensky gave instructions at a meeting with security forces to strictly squash any criticism of the government, which is growing against the backdrop of failures in Donbass and the halt in the offensive in the Kursk region. The President's Office demands that the SBU act preemptively against critics of the government and prevent them from leaving the country, as well as deal with LOMs who express their position on the peaceful track."

[glennkoks]

Another Russian refinery is burning. A result of being hit by drones from Ukraine. Bringing the total to over 30 refineries toasted.

[justme]

Ukrainian Telegram:

"The Ukrainian Armed Forces are retreating from Selidovo, there will be no battles for high-rise buildings, our units have been ordered to take holding actions while the planned withdrawal from the city takes place. The collapse of the front in the Pokrovsk direction is developing into a large-scale retreat of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. If Syrsky does not give the order to attack the Russian army from the flank, then we will lose Kurakhovo and Ugledar in the near future, and then Pokrovsk."

"MI-6 passed on new intelligence to the OP and the General Staff that the Russian army had transferred 5 new brigades to the Pokrovsk direction with equipment and aviation to strengthen the offensive. British intelligence recommends that Bankova urgently transfer reserves to Pokrovsk so that the city is not taken from the flanks."

"Our source in the General Staff said that the Ukrainian Armed Forces on the Eastern Front lack heavy equipment and reserves for a flank attack on the advancing Russian units. Syrsky not only sent reserves, but also removed some brigades with equipment from Konstantinovka and Pokrovsk for the Kursk operation, now a quick solution is needed to transfer forces back to Donbass, so as not to let the front fall apart."

A withdrawal from Kursk would lead to even greater loss of resources of manpower and equipment. Additionally, Russian forces would likely create a sanitary zone across the border in the Sumy region.

Let's say in a parallel universe, Ukraine is able to instantly transport their forces to the Donbas and Russia cannot attack Sumy.

There is still the PR factor. Zelensky's regime has lived off of disinformation, PR, and the propaganda war. It would be a disaster from this perspective, if Ukraine suddenly withdrew all soldiers and resources from Kursk. The Ukrainian government could collapse. Additionally, these resources would only slow down the advance of Russian forces in the Donbas.

[justme]

[glennkoks]

[justme]

[glennkoks]

Putin is not going to make it long

[douglavers]

Apart from Putin's Imperial ambitions, a strong argument for the Russian invasian was that Ukraine was doing well economically, and putting Russia to shame.

Putin believed that Ukraine would just collapse and he would control the country within a week, as happened in Georgia and Crimea.

As a result, he has hugely compromised Russia's economic future - now dependant on China - and trashed its reputation.

Any treaty he agrees to is hardly worth its paper content.

Having said that, Russia might still win thanks to feeble Western governments.

Then Europe has a real problem.

[justme]

Ukrainian Telegram:

"Our source in the OP said that Syrsky warned Zelensky about the collapse of the front and the consequences of losing Pokrovsk, but the President refused to stop the Kursk operation and transfer reserves/equipment to Donbass. The President's Office considers such a scenario a defeat for Ukraine, since the main goals of the Ukrainian Armed Forces have not yet been achieved, and the withdrawal of troops from Russian territories will mean a victory for Putin and his plan for the Kursk gambit."

"Our source in the General Staff said that with the loss of Karlovka, the Ukrainian Armed Forces are losing the chance to flank the advancing forces of the Russian army in the Pokrovsk direction. The lack of reserves did not allow the necessary steps to be taken and became the reason for the collapse of the front; due to the Kursk operation, we lost the opportunity to save Donbass. If the enemy maintains the pace, we will lose Pokrovsk in September, after which the entire Eastern Front will be doomed."

"Our source in the General Staff said that Syrsky again tried to transfer the third assault brigade of the Azov to Pokrovsk, but so far his order is being simply ignored by the most armed and equipped brigade. The commander-in-chief is losing control over the commanders, since many on the Eastern Front consider the Kursk operation a betrayal and a deliberate drain of reserves on the enemy in open terrain."

"Analysis and scenarios of the situation on the Eastern Front:
The capture of Selidovo by the enemy actually means the loss of the first red kennel, which allows the Russian army to begin the encirclement of Ugledar at the second stage.
In two days, the Ukrainian Armed Forces lost Memrika, Galitsinovka and Lesovka, the battles for Ukrainsk begin, which no one prepared for defense from the north, which means that the settlement will be quickly abandoned by our units.
The Ukrainian Armed Forces are forced to leave a powerful fortified area in Karlovka, where we used the reservoir as a natural defensive line.
Here, the northern bank of the Volcha River is steep and high, and the southern is flat. It would be easy to defend it from enemy attacks from the south. That is why a powerful defense line was built here long ago, which the Russian army could not take without great losses.

That is why, after the enemy occupies the high bank of the river in the north, the Ukrainian Armed Forces are simply forced to abandon their positions on its southern bank.

Now it's a question of time how long we can hold unprepared positions in Gornyak, Zoryany and then in Kurakhovka, but without reserves it's a matter of days, which means the Russian army will occupy the red circle during the first days of September and will be able to prepare an operation to encircle Ugledar."

"The situation with Pokrovsk is much worse, the capture of which means the loss of the entire Donbass and this must be understood now. If the General Staff does not transfer reserves from the Kursk operation to the defense of Pokrovsk, then the next contour threatens not a collapse of the front, but simply the loss of the entire Donbass and an open road to Pavlograd."