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Post by duwayne on May 29, 2024 19:38:27 GMT
Here’s more on my take on the Zionism issue.
I believe in religious freedom. If you want to be an atheist, that’s OK. If you are a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim, etc., that’s OK too. It’s a personal thing. What isn’t OK is for the government or others to demand you hold certain religious beliefs.
2,000 years ago there was sufficient religious freedom in Palestine for multiple religions to coexist, but not without some strife. Jews were in the majority with something like 1 million followers.
A few hundred years later, Mohamed founded Islam and over the next 1000 years, by 1690 AD, his harsh efforts and those of his Muslim followers against non-Muslims including the Jews, the Jewish population in Palestine was almost wiped out. There were as few as 2,000 Jewish total residents at the time according to some estimates. Many Jews had been killed but mostly they chose to relocate to other non-Arab countries to avoid the Muslim persecution.
By this time Palestine was part of the far-flung Ottoman Empire under the control of Turkey which encompassed most of the Middle East, North Africa and Southeastern Europe. Over time the Ottomans loosened some of their restrictions on the non-Muslims and they allowed religious minorities the freedom to set up their own local/regional communities including local courts while still collecting taxes for Turkey.
The Jews took advantage of the freer environment and there was a significant return of exiled Jews to Palestine, particularly from countries where things were not working out well for the Jews.
At this time, the English were in control of the American colonies where the freedoms were much greater than in Palestine. But the colonists still could not accept the external control and taxes and they overthrew the British in 1776.
So, many of the Jews located around world were interested in finding a way to more freedom. One idea was to carve out a piece of the world where they were in control. Areas in Uganda and Argentina were considered as possible homes, but a location in Palestine was their dream. This was labeled Zionism.
In the early 1900’s there was a desire but based on past difficulties no clear path to a Jewish homeland.
One more post coming on Zionism…… The Muslims did not run around Exterminating People based on a religious premise - they became colonialist like most other powerful Nations before them, and generally did not discriminate substantially by race or religion but did so by economics. The Christians from Western Europe came to exterminate the Muslims to grab wealth, which is at the root of the problems that exist in the Middle East today. Yes there is much more complicated history to flesh out in the meantime due to various political factions and interests throughout history. However, that is the beginning of it. Perhaps I should also mention for factual reference that the Muslims tried to align themselves with the Jews initially under Muhammad, and were rejected. I will not comment further... I am actually substantially of Jewish descent but I don't want to be banned from here because of potentially volatile beliefs and responses to this. I am just as wary of extreme 'Islam' as I have of extremism within Evangelical Christianity, which I also think is quite dangerous to the world. I don't mean to offend anybody, so please understand - I will step back, but we all have our ethics inside us. Remember, I am trying to focus on Palestine here and Zionism.
I think a key phrase in what you say above is that "they (Muslims) became colonialist like most other powerful Nations before them". I mentioned above the freer environment under the Ottoman Empire. It was more like the environment which the American Colonists would not accept, particularly the high taxes and the colonists rebelled and threw the English out. Most colonialism has died out in
In years prior to the Turkish colonialism I understand from discussions with Muslim Studies professors (who were Muslims) at a PAC-12 University that in earlier times the Muslims (pre-Ottoman) under the teachings of Muhammad adhered to a philosophy dealing with non-believers as follows, they could 1) convert, 2) leave, 3) remain under Muslim domination which included a tax, or 4) be killed. Those were your choices. The Muslims were not always able to achieve this.
I accept your note that "Muslims tried to align themselves with the Jews initially under Muhammad, and were rejected." What were the terms? Co-equals?
Why did the Jewish population in Palestine drop to 2,000 after the Muslim religion was founded and came to Palestine? Was it was because the Jews were bad businessmen?
I would like to better understand more about statement that "the Christians from Western Europe came to exterminate the Muslims to grab wealth, which is at the root of the problems that exist in the Middle East today." and how that relates to Palestine.
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Post by nonentropic on May 29, 2024 21:52:48 GMT
Probably just how things worked then.
It was not till probably WW1 that prisoners of war were fully accepted as a process you should adhere to.
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walth
New Member
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Post by walth on May 29, 2024 22:15:12 GMT
The Muslims did not run around Exterminating People based on a religious premise - they became colonialist like most other powerful Nations before them, and generally did not discriminate substantially by race or religion but did so by economics. The Christians from Western Europe came to exterminate the Muslims to grab wealth, which is at the root of the problems that exist in the Middle East today. Yes there is much more complicated history to flesh out in the meantime due to various political factions and interests throughout history. However, that is the beginning of it. Perhaps I should also mention for factual reference that the Muslims tried to align themselves with the Jews initially under Muhammad, and were rejected. I will not comment further... I am actually substantially of Jewish descent but I don't want to be banned from here because of potentially volatile beliefs and responses to this. I am just as wary of extreme 'Islam' as I have of extremism within Evangelical Christianity, which I also think is quite dangerous to the world. I don't mean to offend anybody, so please understand - I will step back, but we all have our ethics inside us. Remember, I am trying to focus on Palestine here and Zionism.
I think a key phrase in what you say above is that "they (Muslims) became colonialist like most other powerful Nations before them". I mentioned above the freer environment under the Ottoman Empire. It was more like the environment which the American Colonists would not accept, particularly the high taxes and the colonists rebelled and threw the English out. Most colonialism has died out in
In years prior to the Turkish colonialism I understand from discussions with Muslim Studies professors (who were Muslims) at a PAC-12 University that in earlier times the Muslims (pre-Ottoman) under the teachings of Muhammad adhered to a philosophy dealing with non-believers as follows, they could 1) convert, 2) leave, 3) remain under Muslim domination which included a tax, or 4) be killed. Those were your choices. The Muslims were not always able to achieve this.
I accept your note that "Muslims tried to align themselves with the Jews initially under Muhammad, and were rejected." What were the terms? Co-equals?
Why did the Jewish population in Palestine drop to 2,000 after the Muslim religion was founded and came to Palestine? Was it was because the Jews were bad businessmen?
I would like to better understand more about statement that "the Christians from Western Europe came to exterminate the Muslims to grab wealth, which is at the root of the problems that exist in the Middle East today." and how that relates to Palestine.
Thank you if anything for keeping an open mind, and considering my words as an attempt to throw a kink in the common tropes, and spur people to investigate history from other (non-Western European) perspectives. Ultimately, we all have personal and often strongly developed beliefs, and my interjection was not made with the illusion of changing minds per se. I won't pursue this discussion, and freely ignore me if you like. It would take thesis-level commitment on my part to render my 'personal learning/(mis?)understanding of these topics, and I don't have the time currently to undertake that. My background is a decades-long experience of all "big 3" religions from a famillial perspective, and believe me, I hold serious reservations about all of them. As a last note, I would suggest it's instructive to consider the position of the MOST religious of Jewish elders, who quite unanimously fight zionist claims and underpin substantially the *Semitic groups who are opposing the mainstream narratives, literally world-wide. Cheers and best wishes. I will recuse myself from non-climate discussions henceforth. |
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Post by Sigurdur on May 30, 2024 10:08:27 GMT
Remember, I am trying to focus on Palestine here and Zionism.
I think a key phrase in what you say above is that "they (Muslims) became colonialist like most other powerful Nations before them". I mentioned above the freer environment under the Ottoman Empire. It was more like the environment which the American Colonists would not accept, particularly the high taxes and the colonists rebelled and threw the English out. Most colonialism has died out in
In years prior to the Turkish colonialism I understand from discussions with Muslim Studies professors (who were Muslims) at a PAC-12 University that in earlier times the Muslims (pre-Ottoman) under the teachings of Muhammad adhered to a philosophy dealing with non-believers as follows, they could 1) convert, 2) leave, 3) remain under Muslim domination which included a tax, or 4) be killed. Those were your choices. The Muslims were not always able to achieve this.
I accept your note that "Muslims tried to align themselves with the Jews initially under Muhammad, and were rejected." What were the terms? Co-equals?
Why did the Jewish population in Palestine drop to 2,000 after the Muslim religion was founded and came to Palestine? Was it was because the Jews were bad businessmen?
I would like to better understand more about statement that "the Christians from Western Europe came to exterminate the Muslims to grab wealth, which is at the root of the problems that exist in the Middle East today." and how that relates to Palestine.
Thank you if anything for keeping an open mind, and considering my words as an attempt to throw a kink in the common tropes, and spur people to investigate history from other (non-Western European) perspectives. Ultimately, we all have personal and often strongly developed beliefs, and my interjection was not made with the illusion of changing minds per se. I won't pursue this discussion, and freely ignore me if you like. It would take thesis-level commitment on my part to render my 'personal learning/(mis?)understanding of these topics, and I don't have the time currently to undertake that. My background is a decades-long experience of all "big 3" religions from a famillial perspective, and believe me, I hold serious reservations about all of them. As a last note, I would suggest it's instructive to consider the position of the MOST religious of Jewish elders, who quite unanimously fight zionist claims and underpin substantially the *Semitic groups who are opposing the mainstream narratives, literally world-wide. Cheers and best wishes. I will recuse myself from non-climate discussions henceforth. Thank you for your input. |
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Post by duwayne on May 30, 2024 15:54:12 GMT
Continuing the Zionism story as I understand it… To review from the previous post, the Jews fell from a 1 million person majority in Palestine in Jesus Christ’s time to 2,000 people in the late 1600’s, presumably, due to actions by the Palestinian Muslims. The Jewish population then rebounded somewhat as the more lenient Ottoman Empire (Turkey) took over Palestine to the point that in 1914 the Jewish population had grown to 40,000 Jews in Palestine equal to 7% of the population as some exiled Jews risked return under somewhat reduced persecution.
In 1914 the Ottomans were not focused on Palestine. They were focused on taking down Russia in cooperation with the Nazis. As a result, Britain, an ally of Russia, declared war against the Ottomans. When World War I ended, the Ottomans were defeated. They were stripped of their control of countries they held outside of Turkey. Nearly all of these countries were allowed to elect their leaders and proceed forward. Palestine was viewed as more problematic due to the historical Jew/Muslim animosity.
The British were given the responsibility on behalf of the WWI victors of overseeing Palestine and trying to find a solution. Open Palestinian elections would yield a Muslim government because even though many exiled Jews had returned they were still in the minority.
From WWI through WWII Britain worked on a plan for Palestine. During this time they maintained border control which was superior to the current US border. A limited, but significant number of Jews were permitted to relocate to Palestine if they had the money to provide for themselves. Many Jews who tried to enter illegally were retained in camps.
The incoming Jews did not have the right to take over the property of a Muslim without fair payment. New housing was built on purchased private or government land. By the end of WWII the Palestine population was about 58% Muslim, 33% Jews and 8% Christians.
The United Nations put together a commission to recommend a path forward for Palestine. They concluded that the Jews should be given a homeland in Palestine something along the lines of what became the initial Israeli borders. Britain had already decided that. The US and Russia agreed.
There were some non-Zionist Jews, mainly the Orthodox Jews, who believed that Judaism had gotten too liberal and they were concerned that if the majority Jews were put in control of a new homeland it would just lock in the liberal status of Judaism. Discussions among the Jewish sects resulted in promises that the Orthodox Jews could play a role and they went along with the Zionistic move.
The positive views on a homeland in Palestine for the Jews reflected the overall consensus of each of these organizations. There unsurprisingly were people in each of the constituencies who weren’t in favor of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
Obviously, the Muslims were totally opposed.
With this broad backing, the Jews took over Israel. The population of the new Israel was about 80% Jews. The UN retained control of Jerusalem and the remainder of Palestine was outside the Jew’s control and potentially would be governed by the Muslims because of their majority in the areas.
My short summary of Palestine’s history through 1948 is focused on the issues I feel are particularly relevant to the Zionist decision. I’d be interested in your views of whether there are highly significant factors I’ve left out or whether my “facts” are off base.
My question to others here is ‘what would you have recommended’? Should the Jews have founded a homeland (Israel) in Palestine? If not, and this is important, what should have been done? |
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Post by flearider on May 30, 2024 19:28:16 GMT
The Muslims did not run around Exterminating People based on a religious premise ... lol this statement is false .. for the first 150 yrs of the muslim faith thats all there was if you din't convert you were killed .. Double "LOL" back atcha. Perhaps you are confusing them with the Holy Roman Empire. sorry m8 but no lt started in the time of Mohamed and for the next 3-4 leaders (well it was constant for quiet a while after) why do you think whole country's converted first it was towns and villages ..the army grew and then it was city's .. and then country's. rape murder and butchery ... great way to start a religion .. now don't get me wrong the Christian and catholic faith has done the same .. as control is the name of the game. and you get better control with fear |
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Post by ratty on Jun 9, 2024 11:20:30 GMT
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Post by missouriboy on Jun 9, 2024 23:19:13 GMT
I really don't believe that Biden is managing anything. He is signing off on what his "handlers" believe to be best. |
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Post by Sigurdur on Jun 9, 2024 23:50:02 GMT
I would hate to see his "poor" job.
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Post by glennkoks on Jun 10, 2024 21:18:51 GMT
I would hate to see his "poor" job. I am living proof of his "poor" job. Because I'm poorer! |
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Post by ratty on Jun 10, 2024 22:00:05 GMT
I would hate to see his "poor" job. I am living proof of his "poor" job. Because I'm poorer! “ Ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” - JFK You're doing it, Glenn.  |
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Post by missouriboy on Jun 11, 2024 0:46:32 GMT
Engineering Issues - Iraq
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Post by Sigurdur on Jun 23, 2024 21:31:18 GMT
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Post by duwayne on Jun 29, 2024 19:25:48 GMT
As you all know Islam is more than a traditional religion. It also rules over the economic system. And, it’s a poor economic system.
As a result, while Israel under capitalism has a per capita GDP of over $50,000 similar to European countries, the Arab countries which surround Israel have per capita GDP’s of 10% of Israel’s.
The thing you need to fear about the Muslims is not so much their religious beliefs, it’s their economic beliefs and their belief that everyone must follow their religious and economic doctrines.
There are a few muslim countries that have been able to prosper under Islam. They just happen to be sitting on piles of oil. |
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Post by missouriboy on Jun 29, 2024 21:05:12 GMT
As you all know Islam is more than a traditional religion. It also rules over the economic system. And, it’s a poor economic system.
As a result, while Israel under capitalism has a per capita GDP of over $50,000 similar to European countries, the Arab countries which surround Israel have per capita GDP’s of 10% of Israel’s.
The thing you need to fear about the Muslims is not so much their religious beliefs, it’s their economic beliefs and their belief that everyone must follow their religious and economic doctrines.
There are a few muslim countries that have been able to prosper under Islam. They just happen to be sitting on piles of oil. I worked in Jeddah Saudi Arabia for a small Saudi company that hired me out to the Saudi "Meteorological and Environmental Protection Agency" (MEPA). The company owner's brother was the Director of MEPA. Great little conduit for transferring part of the country's oil wealth out of the government ... to the well connected ... relatives. Lots of Saudis were employed by MEPA. Mostly they did very little. Those that tried to do something useful often found themselves at odds with the higher-ups who often told them to shut up and stand down. Met several really bright guys who really wanted to produce something but couldn't. Frustrating for them. Many were educated in the US. Some really bright guys who were not allowed to do anything. Saudi Arabian household income was much higher than the neighbors ... but was heavily skewed to "the connected". Lots of private Saudi owned businesses. Had many conversations ... one with a jewelry shop owner. Young guy. Marta and I were wandering through and he pleasantly asked us if we were married. I said yes and he replied ... "Do you know how much we have to pay for a wife over here?" And he rattled off a very high price in Rials. Then followed up with ... "And that's for a dumb one. A very dumb one".  After that I did all my gold jewelry shopping there. I liked most of the Saudi's I met. But their religious police were a pain in the ass. They patrolled the public districts and Marta didn't like wearing her head scarf. A matawah in a golden robe strolled up to me (not even glancing at Marta) and said "Cover your woman". I told the Saudi guys at work about it. They laughed and said ... "Ohh, that asshole." Similar things happened a few times. Marta is stubborn.  She would have enjoyed telling them off ... but then they would have probably kicked us out of the country. All this while we could get uncensored cable channels (pretty raw). WhY? Because it is owned by a Prince of the Royal Family.
You are correct. Corruption is a way of life, and the many are fed and quieted by the never ending largess. If oil disappeared, that would change. Bin Laden was not a fluke. Most of the others are just too fat to do anything. There was an expat joke ... How do you tell Saudi military equipment from American military equipment? Answer: The Saudi equipment is rusted to the ground. That came out of the British Embassy, which was where we did all our partying. No problem getting in. The Philapino brew-meisters kept the place hopping. Our own Embassy wouldn't let us in without a specific invite.
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After that I did all my gold jewelry shopping there. I liked most of the Saudi's I met. But their religious police were a pain in the ass. They patrolled the public districts and Marta didn't like wearing her head scarf. A matawah in a golden robe strolled up to me (not even glancing at Marta) and said "Cover your woman". I told the Saudi guys at work about it. They laughed and said ... "Ohh, that asshole." Similar things happened a few times. Marta is stubborn. 
She would have enjoyed telling them off ... but then they would have probably kicked us out of the country. All this while we could get uncensored cable channels (pretty raw). WhY? Because it is owned by a Prince of the Royal Family.