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Post by walnut on May 27, 2024 19:57:45 GMT
Then there should be approximately 11 million bodies, right? Or am I missing something. Probably most were converted to novelty lampshades and soap, I guess?
Hoax.
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Post by Sigurdur on May 27, 2024 22:40:13 GMT
Then there should be approximately 11 million bodies, right? Or am I missing something. Probably most were converted to novelty lampshades and soap, I guess? Hoax. Yea, that myth was started by a New York rabbi seeking attention to Austwich. |
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Post by Sigurdur on May 27, 2024 22:43:54 GMT
The Holocaust was much more than people of Jewish faith. Judaism practicing people were approximately 1/2 of the deaths. Again, I didn't say it wasn't. I asked what 'the other side' to it was. The other side is the Holocaust was a wide variety of people that the Germans deemed undesirable. They worked them to death as well as assassinated them. The other side is most of the victims didn't have fire arms as they were consficated. |
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Post by Sigurdur on May 27, 2024 22:50:30 GMT
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Post by gridley on May 28, 2024 10:05:51 GMT
Again, I didn't say it wasn't. I asked what 'the other side' to it was. The other side is the Holocaust was a wide variety of people that the Germans deemed undesirable. They worked them to death as well as assassinated them. The other side is most of the victims didn't have fire arms as they were consficated. Nope. that's still not 'the other side' of the Holocaust. The other side would be the Nazi side. But you seem determined not to acknowledge that.
Of course, that's because there isn't an excuse for evil. There WAS no justification for killing 10-12 million people. There WAS no 'other side' to that story. It was evil. Period. Likewise, there aren't two sides to terrorism. There is no justification for the deliberate slaughter of civilians, the systematic rape of women, or taking children hostage.
Hamas are terrorists. You're giving them a pass on that because they're attacking someone you don't like. But guess what? They're still terrorists. And nothing that has been done to them excuses terrorism - because NOTHING does.
At some point someone is going to trot out 'the lesser of two evils' idea (again) and claim it is OK for Hamas to be evil because Israel is evil. Nope. Terrorism is still evil. Even if Israel IS evil, evil doesn't excuse evil.
As far as I know (and I know a fair amount on this topic) no country on Earth is free from evil - my own, beloved country, in the midst of saving the world (surely the highest of goals, right?) in WWII, committed evil acts. Those acts aren't excused because we were fighting some of the greatest evil in human history. Nor, for that matter, is Stalin's Great Purge excused because he fought Nazi's too. Israel doesn't get a pass if it does evil things - but NEITHER DOES HAMAS.
Evil is evil.
We've got a lot of problems today. One is that we've conditioned several generations to believe that there's always a right side and a wrong side on anything (and only the two sides), so all they have to do is prove the other side is wrong, and that means they're right. The real world isn't that simple. Evil is everywhere and must be opposed everywhere. Evil can not be excused.
Trump's unconstitutional actions (and any laws he may have broken along the way) aren't excused because he's better than Creepy Joe. Vote for him, by all means, BUT DON'T GIVE HIM A PASS.
And don't give Hamas a pass for murder, rape, and burning babies to death.
Because doing so would be... evil.
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Post by Sigurdur on May 28, 2024 11:00:06 GMT
I don't give either side a pass.
I must have not been clear enough on that when posting.
I do fully expect a response when land is stolen.
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Post by duwayne on May 28, 2024 23:06:41 GMT
Here’s more on my take on the Zionism issue.
I believe in religious freedom. If you want to be an atheist, that’s OK. If you are a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim, etc., that’s OK too. It’s a personal thing. What isn’t OK is for the government or others to demand you hold certain religious beliefs.
2,000 years ago there was sufficient religious freedom in Palestine for multiple religions to coexist, but not without some strife. Jews were in the majority with something like 1 million followers.
A few hundred years later, Mohamed founded Islam and over the next 1000 years, by 1690 AD, his harsh efforts and those of his Muslim followers against non-Muslims including the Jews, the Jewish population in Palestine was almost wiped out. There were as few as 2,000 Jewish total residents at the time according to some estimates. Many Jews had been killed but mostly they chose to relocate to other non-Arab countries to avoid the Muslim persecution.
By this time Palestine was part of the far-flung Ottoman Empire under the control of Turkey which encompassed most of the Middle East, North Africa and Southeastern Europe. Over time the Ottomans loosened some of their restrictions on the non-Muslims and they allowed religious minorities the freedom to set up their own local/regional communities including local courts while still collecting taxes for Turkey.
The Jews took advantage of the freer environment and there was a significant return of exiled Jews to Palestine, particularly from countries where things were not working out well for the Jews.
At this time, the English were in control of the American colonies where the freedoms were much greater than in Palestine. But the colonists still could not accept the external control and taxes and they overthrew the British in 1776.
So, many of the Jews located around world were interested in finding a way to more freedom. One idea was to carve out a piece of the world where they were in control. Areas in Uganda and Argentina were considered as possible homes, but a location in Palestine was their dream. This was labeled Zionism.
In the early 1900’s there was a desire but based on past difficulties no clear path to a Jewish homeland.
One more post coming on Zionism…… |
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Post by glennkoks on May 28, 2024 23:16:33 GMT
I am leery of those who would deny or minimize the holocaust. The following is a quote from Dwight D. Eisenhower who made sure the horrors of the genocide were recorded.
"But the most interesting -- although horrible -- sight that I encountered during the trip was a visit to a German internment camp near Gotha. The things I saw beggar description. While I was touring the camp I encountered three men who had been inmates and by one ruse or another had made their escape. I interviewed them through an interpreter. The visual evidence and the verbal testimony of starvation, cruelty and bestiality were so overpowering as to leave me a bit sick. In one room, where they [there] were piled up twenty or thirty naked men, killed by starvation, George Patton would not even enter. He said he would get sick if he did so. I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in position to give first-hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations merely to 'propaganda'."
With that being said you would think a people nearly destroyed by hatred would be a little more human in their treatment of the Palestinians. Israel has stolen Palestinian land, placed its people in essentially walled off outdoor prison camps similar to the Warsaw Ghetto and now are systematically and ruthlessly destroying them. How is that any different from what was done to them?
Hamas is just as evil. Killing innocent teenagers at a music festival is the definition of pure evil.
I don't have any answers but I do not want my taxpayer dollar to go to Israel so they can commit genocide. 60% of the structures in the Gaza Strip have been destroyed. Enough is enough. The free world needs to tell Netenyahu to stand down and send U.N. peacekeepers in to restore some type of sanity to the region.
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Post by walnut on May 28, 2024 23:59:05 GMT
I believe that many people died in the camps near the end of the war, as Germany ran out of resources. And allowing that situation to occur was a horrible crime. But I do not believe that there was ever a planned genocide. The phrase "The Final Solution" was a myth. Supposedly first spoken at the Wannsee Conference, I do not believe that the Wannsee conference ever actually took place. I translated the "minutes" of the supposed conference to English, and they read so stilted and strangely (beyond being caused by the translating of the language). One of the fake Russian offered documents produced for the Nuremburg trials. Palestine seemed the answer to the prayers of a diverse group of nations.
Sorry that you are "leery" Glenn. I guess I feel the same way about people who predictably and reflexively call others "anti-semites", completely unwilling to challenge the 1970's programming they took in heavy doses while eating Captain Crunch and twinkies during their impressionable formative years. To know who actually rules you, consider who you are absolutely not allowed to question or criticize.
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walth
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Post by walth on May 29, 2024 1:34:26 GMT
Here’s more on my take on the Zionism issue.
I believe in religious freedom. If you want to be an atheist, that’s OK. If you are a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim, etc., that’s OK too. It’s a personal thing. What isn’t OK is for the government or others to demand you hold certain religious beliefs.
2,000 years ago there was sufficient religious freedom in Palestine for multiple religions to coexist, but not without some strife. Jews were in the majority with something like 1 million followers.
A few hundred years later, Mohamed founded Islam and over the next 1000 years, by 1690 AD, his harsh efforts and those of his Muslim followers against non-Muslims including the Jews, the Jewish population in Palestine was almost wiped out. There were as few as 2,000 Jewish total residents at the time according to some estimates. Many Jews had been killed but mostly they chose to relocate to other non-Arab countries to avoid the Muslim persecution.
By this time Palestine was part of the far-flung Ottoman Empire under the control of Turkey which encompassed most of the Middle East, North Africa and Southeastern Europe. Over time the Ottomans loosened some of their restrictions on the non-Muslims and they allowed religious minorities the freedom to set up their own local/regional communities including local courts while still collecting taxes for Turkey.
The Jews took advantage of the freer environment and there was a significant return of exiled Jews to Palestine, particularly from countries where things were not working out well for the Jews.
At this time, the English were in control of the American colonies where the freedoms were much greater than in Palestine. But the colonists still could not accept the external control and taxes and they overthrew the British in 1776.
So, many of the Jews located around world were interested in finding a way to more freedom. One idea was to carve out a piece of the world where they were in control. Areas in Uganda and Argentina were considered as possible homes, but a location in Palestine was their dream. This was labeled Zionism.
In the early 1900’s there was a desire but based on past difficulties no clear path to a Jewish homeland.
One more post coming on Zionism…… The Muslims did not run around Exterminating People based on a religious premise - they became colonialist like most other powerful Nations before them, and generally did not discriminate substantially by race or religion but did so by economics. The Christians from Western Europe came to exterminate the Muslims to grab wealth, which is at the root of the problems that exist in the Middle East today. Yes there is much more complicated history to flesh out in the meantime due to various political factions and interests throughout history. However, that is the beginning of it. Perhaps I should also mention for factual reference that the Muslims tried to align themselves with the Jews initially under Muhammad, and were rejected. I will not comment further... I am actually substantially of Jewish descent but I don't want to be banned from here because of potentially volatile beliefs and responses to this. I am just as wary of extreme 'Islam' as I have of extremism within Evangelical Christianity, which I also think is quite dangerous to the world. I don't mean to offend anybody, so please understand - I will step back, but we all have our ethics inside us. |
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Post by ratty on May 29, 2024 2:11:21 GMT
Here’s more on my take on the Zionism issue. I believe in religious freedom. If you want to be an atheist, that’s OK. If you are a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim, etc., that’s OK too. It’s a personal thing. What isn’t OK is for the government or others to demand you hold certain religious beliefs. 2,000 years ago there was sufficient religious freedom in Palestine for multiple religions to coexist, but not without some strife. Jews were in the majority with something like 1 million followers. A few hundred years later, Mohamed founded Islam and over the next 1000 years, by 1690 AD, his harsh efforts and those of his Muslim followers against non-Muslims including the Jews, the Jewish population in Palestine was almost wiped out. There were as few as 2,000 Jewish total residents at the time according to some estimates. Many Jews had been killed but mostly they chose to relocate to other non-Arab countries to avoid the Muslim persecution. By this time Palestine was part of the far-flung Ottoman Empire under the control of Turkey which encompassed most of the Middle East, North Africa and Southeastern Europe. Over time the Ottomans loosened some of their restrictions on the non-Muslims and they allowed religious minorities the freedom to set up their own local/regional communities including local courts while still collecting taxes for Turkey. The Jews took advantage of the freer environment and there was a significant return of exiled Jews to Palestine, particularly from countries where things were not working out well for the Jews. At this time, the English were in control of the American colonies where the freedoms were much greater than in Palestine. But the colonists still could not accept the external control and taxes and they overthrew the British in 1776. So, many of the Jews located around world were interested in finding a way to more freedom. One idea was to carve out a piece of the world where they were in control. Areas in Uganda and Argentina were considered as possible homes, but a location in Palestine was their dream. This was labeled Zionism. In the early 1900’s there was a desire but based on past difficulties no clear path to a Jewish homeland. One more post coming on Zionism…… The Muslims did not run around Exterminating People based on a religious premise - they became colonialist like most other powerful Nations before them, and generally did not discriminate substantially by race or religion but did so by economics. The Christians from Western Europe came to exterminate the Muslims to grab wealth, which is at the root of the problems that exist in the Middle East today. Yes there is much more complicated history to flesh out in the meantime due to various political factions and interests throughout history. However, that is the beginning of it. Perhaps I should also mention for factual reference that the Muslims tried to align themselves with the Jews initially under Muhammad, and were rejected. I will not comment further... I am actually substantially of Jewish descent but I don't want to be banned from here because of potentially volatile beliefs and responses to this. I am just as wary of extreme 'Islam' as I have of extremism within Evangelical Christianity, which I also think is quite dangerous to the world. I don't mean to offend anybody, so please understand - I will step back, but we all have our ethics inside us. We are a tolerant lot here, Walth. |
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walth
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Post by walth on May 29, 2024 2:24:11 GMT
We are a tolerant lot here, Walth. Thank you very much Ratty - I very much appreciate that. I have noticed that truth over many years of mainly lurking on your threads wherein you have all made a commendable effort in trying to debunk the religious zealotry of climate extremism, and hopefully are starting to get through to the mainstream. |
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Post by flearider on May 29, 2024 10:02:28 GMT
Here’s more on my take on the Zionism issue.
I believe in religious freedom. If you want to be an atheist, that’s OK. If you are a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim, etc., that’s OK too. It’s a personal thing. What isn’t OK is for the government or others to demand you hold certain religious beliefs.
2,000 years ago there was sufficient religious freedom in Palestine for multiple religions to coexist, but not without some strife. Jews were in the majority with something like 1 million followers.
A few hundred years later, Mohamed founded Islam and over the next 1000 years, by 1690 AD, his harsh efforts and those of his Muslim followers against non-Muslims including the Jews, the Jewish population in Palestine was almost wiped out. There were as few as 2,000 Jewish total residents at the time according to some estimates. Many Jews had been killed but mostly they chose to relocate to other non-Arab countries to avoid the Muslim persecution.
By this time Palestine was part of the far-flung Ottoman Empire under the control of Turkey which encompassed most of the Middle East, North Africa and Southeastern Europe. Over time the Ottomans loosened some of their restrictions on the non-Muslims and they allowed religious minorities the freedom to set up their own local/regional communities including local courts while still collecting taxes for Turkey.
The Jews took advantage of the freer environment and there was a significant return of exiled Jews to Palestine, particularly from countries where things were not working out well for the Jews.
At this time, the English were in control of the American colonies where the freedoms were much greater than in Palestine. But the colonists still could not accept the external control and taxes and they overthrew the British in 1776.
So, many of the Jews located around world were interested in finding a way to more freedom. One idea was to carve out a piece of the world where they were in control. Areas in Uganda and Argentina were considered as possible homes, but a location in Palestine was their dream. This was labeled Zionism.
In the early 1900’s there was a desire but based on past difficulties no clear path to a Jewish homeland.
One more post coming on Zionism…… The Muslims did not run around Exterminating People based on a religious premise - they became colonialist like most other powerful Nations before them, and generally did not discriminate substantially by race or religion but did so by economics. The Christians from Western Europe came to exterminate the Muslims to grab wealth, which is at the root of the problems that exist in the Middle East today. Yes there is much more complicated history to flesh out in the meantime due to various political factions and interests throughout history. However, that is the beginning of it. Perhaps I should also mention for factual reference that the Muslims tried to align themselves with the Jews initially under Muhammad, and were rejected. I will not comment further... I am actually substantially of Jewish descent but I don't want to be banned from here because of potentially volatile beliefs and responses to this. I am just as wary of extreme 'Islam' as I have of extremism within Evangelical Christianity, which I also think is quite dangerous to the world. I don't mean to offend anybody, so please understand - I will step back, but we all have our ethics inside us. The Muslims did not run around Exterminating People based on a religious premise ... lol this statement is false .. for the first 150 yrs of the muslim faith thats all there was if you din't convert you were killed .. |
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Post by glennkoks on May 29, 2024 17:57:00 GMT
I believe that many people died in the camps near the end of the war, as Germany ran out of resources. And allowing that situation to occur was a horrible crime. But I do not believe that there was ever a planned genocide. The phrase "The Final Solution" was a myth. Supposedly first spoken at the Wannsee Conference, I do not believe that the Wannsee conference ever actually took place. I translated the "minutes" of the supposed conference to English, and they read so stilted and strangely (beyond being caused by the translating of the language). One of the fake Russian offered documents produced for the Nuremburg trials. Palestine seemed the answer to the prayers of a diverse group of nations. Sorry that you are "leery" Glenn. I guess I feel the same way about people who predictably and reflexively call others "anti-semites", completely unwilling to challenge the 1970's programming they took in heavy doses while eating Captain Crunch and twinkies during their impressionable formative years. To know who actually rules you, consider who you are absolutely not allowed to question or criticize. You don't build gas chambers and crematoriums unless you plan to use them. I think the holocaust was a planned genocide and part of Hitler's final solution. There is enough historical evidence in my opinion to conclude the Nazi's were indeed intent on exterminating the Jews. I will also say that I am not sure Netenyahu does not plan to completely exterminate the Palestinians and steal their land. His actions up to this point would lead most people with an open mind to conclude this is indeed his plans. Both the Holocaust and what is going on in Palestine is just evil. Sometimes there are no "good guys"... I will conclude with this. Where there is smoke there is fire. There is a reason why almost every nation on earth has expelled the Jew's at one time or another. They do not seem to make good neighbors. Whether it be their culture, religion or race I don't know. I also do not think it is a coincidence that Jews are highly over represented at the highest levels of government, media and business. If this statement makes me "anti-semitic" so be it... |
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walth
New Member
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Post by walth on May 29, 2024 19:05:50 GMT
The Muslims did not run around Exterminating People based on a religious premise ... lol this statement is false .. for the first 150 yrs of the muslim faith thats all there was if you din't convert you were killed .. Double "LOL" back atcha. Perhaps you are confusing them with the Holy Roman Empire. |
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