|
|
Post by ratty on May 22, 2024 22:41:13 GMT
Uh... I'm unaware that Muslims lived in 'relative harmony' with ANYONE from Islam's creation onward.
Of course, I don't count slavery, forced servitude, and paying danegeld as "relative harmony." Historically most Muslims consider them SOP, even today.
It had become customary to blame the European Dark Ages on Germanic invaders following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. Not so ... as the Germanic tribes largely took over the collapsing Roman order. From the late 700s onward, the west Med coast became a barren wasteland from continuous Islamic raids and conquest. The infrastructure destroyed and the populations carried off into slavery. The East Med's fate was sealed with the sack of Constantinople in 1453 ... followed by the conquest of the Balkans. The Ottomans were finally stopped at Vienna in 1683. So ... a thousand years of the so-called Golden Age of Islam. So ... if not for the West and East Europeans, y'all might be speaking Arabic today. The traditionalists still say that ... once part of the Caliphate ... always part of the Caliphate. The Islamic Peace is the Peace of the Graveyard and the Slaveyard. There were NO golden magic moments. If that's an original, I dips me lid to you sir.  |
|
|
|
Post by duwayne on May 22, 2024 23:34:12 GMT
I don't think it's a blow to Israel's international standing but it is proof that antisemitism is evident at every level in the world. The one issue is that Netanyahu is no saint, but Hamas are orders of magnitude more evil. All this while the Arab states are behind the Israelis in this conflict, they are sick of the Palestinians who make the Middle East less stable for no benefit to them. The seeds of the Palestinian crisis were born in WW2 German concentration camps where the Arafat's family and others learnt their skills. Israel is practicing Zionism. Bibi is scared of the 2 State solution. He must think if Israel levels Gaza that people whose families have lived there for 1,000's of years are going to give up. Other Arab countries don't want Gazans because if they accepted them, Israel would become even more bold. It is well understood that Jew and Muslim lived in relative harmony until the Zionist movement gained traction in the late 1800's, early 1900's.
I don't know exactly what is meant by the term "relative harmony". Is the relationship between France and Germany in 1942 one of relative harmony?
|
|
|
|
Post by Sigurdur on May 24, 2024 14:42:23 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Sigurdur on May 24, 2024 14:58:42 GMT
Israel is practicing Zionism. Bibi is scared of the 2 State solution. He must think if Israel levels Gaza that people whose families have lived there for 1,000's of years are going to give up. Other Arab countries don't want Gazans because if they accepted them, Israel would become even more bold. It is well understood that Jew and Muslim lived in relative harmony until the Zionist movement gained traction in the late 1800's, early 1900's.
I don't know exactly what is meant by the term "relative harmony". Is the relationship between France and Germany in 1942 one of relative harmony?
Relative harmony. For about 1800 years, Jew and Muslim co existed in Palistine. They were friends and neighbors. Zionism came along in the late 1800's. Fighting in earnest started. There have been numerous massacres committed by both Muslim and Jew in the past 100 years. The once relatively peaceful coexistence is no more. The Gaza fighting is one area that has now spread to the West Bank. Displacing people who have had title to land for centuries will never go well. That is what Zionism is doing. It doesn't surprise me that people are fighting back. |
|
|
|
Post by duwayne on May 24, 2024 20:53:45 GMT
I don't know exactly what is meant by the term "relative harmony". Is the relationship between France and Germany in 1942 one of relative harmony?
Relative harmony. For about 1800 years, Jew and Muslim co existed in Palistine. They were friends and neighbors. Zionism came along in the late 1800's. Fighting in earnest started. There have been numerous massacres committed by both Muslim and Jew in the past 100 years. The once relatively peaceful coexistence is no more. The Gaza fighting is one area that has now spread to the West Bank. Displacing people who have had title to land for centuries will never go well. That is what Zionism is doing. It doesn't surprise me that people are fighting back. Sigurdur, I’m going to have to go back and check my facts on the history of Jew/Muslim relationships and Zionism, but here’s what I had thought was the case.
I didn’t think the Jews and Muslims were as friendly as you suggest for the 1800 year period before Zionism started. In fact I thought there were no Muslims in the early part of that period because the founder of Islam wasn’t born until a few hundred years later.
Also, I thought Mohamed when he did come onto the scene was not a friend of the Jews. He, himself killed around 700 people and he preached that nonbelievers such as the Jews must convert to Islam or be killed or agree to live under subjugation (taxation).
For some reason, I thought that it was enough of a problem that well over 90% of the Jews ultimately were killed are moved out of Palestine.
To help me update my understanding, I would be interested in any links you may have describing the neighborly (not domination or captivity) Jew/Muslim relations in Palestine in the 1800 year period you allude to.
I’ll make another post about my understanding of the rise of Zionism. |
|
|
|
Post by Sigurdur on May 24, 2024 21:35:09 GMT
Relative harmony. For about 1800 years, Jew and Muslim co existed in Palistine. They were friends and neighbors. Zionism came along in the late 1800's. Fighting in earnest started. There have been numerous massacres committed by both Muslim and Jew in the past 100 years. The once relatively peaceful coexistence is no more. The Gaza fighting is one area that has now spread to the West Bank. Displacing people who have had title to land for centuries will never go well. That is what Zionism is doing. It doesn't surprise me that people are fighting back. Sigurdur, I’m going to have to go back and check my facts on the history of Jew/Muslim relationships and Zionism, but here’s what I had thought was the case.
I didn’t think the Jews and Muslims were as friendly as you suggest for the 1800 year period before Zionism started. In fact I thought there were no Muslims in the early part of that period because the founder of Islam wasn’t born until a few hundred years later.
Also, I thought Mohamed when he did come onto the scene was not a friend of the Jews. He, himself killed around 700 people and he preached that nonbelievers such as the Jews must convert to Islam or be killed or agree to live under subjugation (taxation).
For some reason, I thought that it was enough of a problem that well over 90% of the Jews ultimately were killed are moved out of Palestine.
To help me update my understanding, I would be interested in any links you may have describing the neighborly (not domination or captivity) Jew/Muslim relations in Palestine in the 1800 year period you allude to.
I’ll make another post about my understanding of the rise of Zionism. |
|
|
|
Post by missouriboy on May 24, 2024 23:52:25 GMT
For better or worse, this is Wiki's take ...
|
|
|
|
Post by Sigurdur on May 25, 2024 0:44:10 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by walnut on May 25, 2024 2:01:36 GMT
The '6 million' number has been focus grouped for years ![]()  |
|
|
|
Post by gridley on May 25, 2024 17:47:44 GMT
Sigurdur, I’m going to have to go back and check my facts on the history of Jew/Muslim relationships and Zionism, but here’s what I had thought was the case.
I didn’t think the Jews and Muslims were as friendly as you suggest for the 1800 year period before Zionism started. In fact I thought there were no Muslims in the early part of that period because the founder of Islam wasn’t born until a few hundred years later.
Also, I thought Mohamed when he did come onto the scene was not a friend of the Jews. He, himself killed around 700 people and he preached that nonbelievers such as the Jews must convert to Islam or be killed or agree to live under subjugation (taxation).
For some reason, I thought that it was enough of a problem that well over 90% of the Jews ultimately were killed are moved out of Palestine.
To help me update my understanding, I would be interested in any links you may have describing the neighborly (not domination or captivity) Jew/Muslim relations in Palestine in the 1800 year period you allude to.
I’ll make another post about my understanding of the rise of Zionism. Wow, that link looks COMPLETELY unbiased! |
|
|
|
Post by ratty on May 25, 2024 22:14:34 GMT
Wow, that link looks COMPLETELY unbiased! Of course it is .... |
|
|
|
Post by Sigurdur on May 25, 2024 22:31:29 GMT
Wow, that link looks COMPLETELY unbiased! The important thing is the information presented is easily verified. |
|
|
|
Post by gridley on May 26, 2024 11:24:56 GMT
Wow, that link looks COMPLETELY unbiased! The important thing is the information presented is easily verified. Via other completely unbiased sources.
Look, CNN and half the MSM was playing "tear off and print" with information from a terrorist organization. Probably still are, I've stopped paying attention to their coverage on the topic. University campuses were full of idiots pursuing worthless degrees chanting along with the latest Prog mantra. I'm sure you could interview thousands of people, consult hundreds of websites, and they'd chant the "anti-Zionist" line.
GIGO.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sigurdur on May 26, 2024 12:39:56 GMT
The important thing is the information presented is easily verified. Via other completely unbiased sources.
Look, CNN and half the MSM was playing "tear off and print" with information from a terrorist organization. Probably still are, I've stopped paying attention to their coverage on the topic. University campuses were full of idiots pursuing worthless degrees chanting along with the latest Prog mantra. I'm sure you could interview thousands of people, consult hundreds of websites, and they'd chant the "anti-Zionist" line.
GIGO.
There are always 2 sides to a story. Neither side in the Gaza conflict is without blame. Zionists are going overboard in their response. |
|
|
|
Post by walnut on May 26, 2024 13:02:28 GMT
Via other completely unbiased sources.
Look, CNN and half the MSM was playing "tear off and print" with information from a terrorist organization. Probably still are, I've stopped paying attention to their coverage on the topic. University campuses were full of idiots pursuing worthless degrees chanting along with the latest Prog mantra. I'm sure you could interview thousands of people, consult hundreds of websites, and they'd chant the "anti-Zionist" line.
GIGO.
There are always 2 sides to a story. Neither side in the Gaza conflict is without blame. Zionists are going overboard in their response. I don't know, I'd say that those European carpetbagger fake Semites do not belong there whatsoever. Don't steal people's houses or else expect their sons to come back to give you trouble in the future. The Zionists have shown their victims no human kindness since they began squatting on their land. |
|
